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Episode 5: Vulnerability as a Superpower with Dr. Bob Beare, Psychologist and Author of Stop Doing Sh*t You Don’t Want to Do

Episode #5| November 28, 2023
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About the Guests:

Dr. Bob Beare

Psychologist and Author of Stop Doing Sh*t You Don’t Want to Do
Bob Beare, PhD is a psychologist and executive coach living in Austin, Texas. He is the author of The Creative Fire: 10 Weeks to Emotional and Creative Fitness and Stop Doing Sh*t. You Don’t Want to Do: A Straightforward Guide to Letting Go of Unresolved Trauma. Bob is the founder of Deep Waters Recovery Experiential Workshops, Bobbeare.com Empowerment Programs, The Creative Life Institute, and is a professional actor, director, singer, and composer. BobBeare.com CreativeLifeInstitute.com DeepWatersRecovery.com

Read The Transcript

Dr. Stacy Thayer: Hello and welcome to CyberPsych, an Netography podcast where we talk with industry professionals about the human side of technology and how it relates to security how it impacts the overall business I’m your host Dr Stacy Thayer I’m a cyber psychologist and Senior manager of research and engagement at neography I’m here today with a very special guest uh Dr Bob Beare. Dr. Beare is a a PHD psychologist an executive coach living in Austin Texas uh he is the author of The Creative Fire,  10 weeks to Emotional and Creative Fitness and uh this book right here which I own and have read recently is Stop Doing Sh*t. You Don’t Want to Do: A Straightforward Guide to Letting Go of Unresolved Trauma. Bob is the founder of Deep Waters Recovery Experiential Workshops, Bobbeare.com Empowerment Programs, The Creative Life Institute, and is a professional actor, director, singer, and composer. so lots of interesting things to talk about I’m really excited to have you here today welcome Dr Bob Beare!

Dr. Bob Beare: Hey Stacy thank you it’s gonna be fun 

Dr. Stacy Thayer: Why don’t you kick us off because um this you will be new to many of my listeners here who are in the security industry uh from either the technical side or the human side but this is um and the first time I’m reaching way out and um reaching to somebody who isn’t necessarily rooted in the security industry way you reached way out reached way out um and and but that’s what makes it exciting and different and so um for those of you you who aren’t familiar with you who let’s go with that’s going to be most people um can you share a little bit about your background your and your current work 

Dr. Bob Beare: I was wandering around in the dark for the first 35 year years of my life although along the way I picked up a few tools uh in my travels uh as an actor and director and theater person and also picked up some nice addictions that were there a lot of uh that were fun for a while until they weren’t and uh I was about 35 when I hit the wall of shall I even stay in this life or not which for some people that’s the wakeup call May for other people it doesn’t have to be that big of a wake up call but that’s when I took the turn from kind of a living a um I was committed to superficiality like keep me out of anything underneath the surface it wasn’t because I was taught that right I was I’m I’m a male here’s here’s my marching orders be tough figure [ __ ] out and uh fix stuff that’s it that that that is a lot a lot of pressure bit I got a little bit of what uh women get a lot of which is be nice also and help people be very helpful smile so none of that stuff you know all of it’s good but it’s not the whole thing and I wasn’t being living an authentic life so I found 12-step recovery and I happen to get into this work into the deeper healing work during the beginnings of the men’s movement which uh uh writers like Robert Blly and Sam Keane and uh Michael Meade some of your listener I guarantee you some of your listeners have stumbled into that work um but it’s grown into you know I’m I’m uh it’s grown into a u a a culture now in my in my estimation that has a little bit more Consciousness I now have a 21y old she is like so more so much more awake than than I was and so are her friends now we you could you could either blame everything that’s wrong in the world on technology or you could say hm maybe there’s a doorway into some wisdom also if it’s used correctly uh just to try to make a reference to the topic that we’re on here but for the last many years I have gathered up a bunch of degrees lots of uh uh alphabet soup after my name and uh written a bunch of plays written a bunch of books and but the main thing that I do is help people heal their trauma which is underneath you know you can say I’m arrogant or maybe I’m to simplifying it a little bit but I if you look around the world and you see uh a particular kind of problem which is what you do for a living where’s the problem how can I mitigate it uh right we’re all doing that y for me I look at it and I can see the trauma underneath it in other words the the uh the conditions that created this situation happened for many people in their childhood and their trying to work it out either by sending Rockets to another com uh country or through some techn we’re trying to work out our unconscious stuff through whatever means we’re in and if we’re completely in our heads in our intellect and don’t have access to the emotional part of us uh is just a [ __ ] show yeah that’s what I’ve been up to

Dr. Stacy Thayer:  now would you say that um does everybody have some sort of trauma that they’re working through um I know like for me personally I I would reach out and I would say yeah probably um we all have something that hurts us we all have something unresolved something we haven’t worked through have would you agree with that sentiment 

Dr. Bob Beare: yeah but you’re you are in a uh somewhat of an advanced category because you’re a seeker of sorts you are are a person that has already gotten past the uh the most common phrase I hear when I start talking about traumas oh no I’m from a good family and then I just let it sit there for a minute I said well I wasn’t at the that’s a nonse I wasn’t asking if you’re from a I’m from a good we’re all from a goodness there was goodness in all of our families that’s not the question what we’re talking about is what actually happened we’re not talking about blaming anybody we’re not accusing anybody but you know there was dynamics in my great family that were uh that my folks were trying to work out their own trauma and it gets on the kids it’s just data it’s not a a it’s not a a morality thing of any kind uh but we have if you want to grow you have to we have to look at it and yes we in my definition of trauma we all have it got it 

Dr. Stacy Thayer: yeah and and I mean for people who do have good families life man life’s a [ __ ] right because if if it’s not you know from your family it’s from your peers it’s from your co-workers it’s from Partners boyfriend friends girlfriends best friends you know we uh there’s a what is it I saw a meme recently and it said none of my scars are from people um who I hated or something along those lines that most of our scars come from sometimes the people that we were closest to whether might It be by choice or by circumstance you know work environments or whatnot you know the depth of the trauma can can differ but we’re all struggling with things that we don’t know how to resolve in some way 

Dr. Bob Beare: well I would I would uh I don’t argue anymore I’ve quit arguing in my life You’ ever heard of such a thing but I just don’t argue anymore I sort of just move on but if I were to argue I would argue that um that it’s all Choice it’s just that most of it is unconscious yes yes a lot of research research that shows that we are about at the very best 5% conscious everything we do is run by the unconscious 95% of it is is just subconscious running on uh running on the rhythm that we have gotten on uh in in reaction to our childhood from 0er to 7 to 10 to those years after that I don’t know if you have kids or not I after 10 she was done she’s on her trajectory where and probably will hit some walls and have to unravel what was put on her right um so what you’re talking about is what we in this world call complex trauma which I’m sure you’ve stumbled into at some point or another so we get off of our track right when we’re kids we want to please people we want to please our caregivers or some people got some serious trauma and just completely shut down you know and they’re just not themselves at all completely an inauthentic human being walking around in somewhat of a days others of us had uh things happened that were a little more subtle like just everybody was playing a different role if there was Addiction in the family all the roles were shifted so we became something that we’re not right and then we make choices based on that our our caregivers uh or our uh or our our jobs our our um our partners uh everything that we choose from there is somewhat of a trajectory and the trajectory is off so no wonder it crashes and burns we’re making choices unconsciously from our original wounds and then it just stacks trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma or if you wanna if you want to call it uh ju there’s many different ways to talk if you don’t like the word trauma you can use uh What uh what in The Four Agreements have you run into that uh body of work uh by Ruiz um no but he refers to it as domestication sometimes people can stomach that better than trauma like we’ve been domesticated to be a certain way right then there’s a wakeup call that happens eventually after we stack up more trauma on top of it crashes and burns that just seem like fate right Jung said anything that we don’t look at underneath the surface is going to show up in our life and we’ll just call it fate while it just happened to be no it’s directly from the trajectory from our unresolved stuff 

Dr. Stacy Thayer: well I think what’s also in important is that I I hear a lot of people brush their own trauma I mean trauma is a strong word right it it and I think what what most people hear is they hear the word trauma and they think like oh I’ve been abused like that the trauma is a great it’s a spectrum it’s a gray area I think I mean you know tell me if you if you certainly disagree or anything but what what I found is when you know I I’ve encouraged people say it to go and talk to a therapist oh I don’t really need it my problems aren’t that bad everybody could could use that as far as I’m concerned I mean granted I’m I’m you know being a being a in a clinical psychology program the first thing I tell you is um you know go go actually be in therapy and you actually talked about this I think in your book of like when you’re training to become a clinician they’re like here you you don’t don’t go anything on your own personal wisdom and in fact you’re not supposed to share anything about yourself and but that’s what makes us the most relatable to understand other people but so that trauma you don’t have to hit like there’s no number I’m at 10% of my trauma quota I’m at 100% trauma quota trauma is trauma emotions they come out sideways if you don’t deal with them too 

Dr. Bob Beare: you’re right it’s a strong word and if we’re you know I think your world is a lot in the workplace so you’re not going to flop the trauma word out there uh to everybody you can sneak it in you can sneak it in through the emotional intelligence conversation that’s the way I found in the in the workplace uh that okay we can talk talk about emotional intelligence that’s about as close as yes we get to feelings uh but uh just I’ll try to do the short version of uh the the world of trauma that I’m referring to here and we can take the name trauma off it and just look at look at the uh look at the circumstances that I’m referring to here first of all abuse that’s the thing most people think it is right and we all know what that is sexual physical emotional verbal intense stuff we know what that is that’s trauma accidents is the other one like shocking incidents that’s the other one that those are the two things that we think are trauma it’s so much more than that and the other three are more subtle so most people if they have that they don’t think they have trauma it’s part of the how we keep keep it in denial one of them is abandonment and that can be just our parents were working a lot it’s not intentional but we didn’t have like the emotional presence that we needed as a kid and some people got actually physically abandoned and that then we’re always looking for that thing to fill the hole sometimes it’s a job oh this job is gonna make and then we’re always unsatisfied right and then there’s neglect you know anybody’s from a military family got dragged around to 10 20 different houses nobody was intentionally neglecting but there most any military kid will tell you you know I’m not always sure where I belong so right uh there’s so many things that happen to us along the way we don’t have to put them in the category of bad or uh blaming anybody but the biggest one that most people are in denial of the most under acknowledged misunderstood is called enmeshment and then when I’m in a group I kind of let folks unpack what they think in emeshment is but there’s usually a oh yeah oh yeah in everybody because we’re imperfect humans right and emeshment is a is when the roles in the family because of some kind of dysfunction which we all have there is no perfect person or family or corporation anywhere uh there’s imperfection and when we are uh uh trying to sort out our stuff if there’s mental illness or addiction it’s even more exaggerated we take on roles there’s people that take on the caretaker role to help the person that’s struggling there’s the hero role there’s always a hero in the family and there’s always the scapegoat and there’s all these different roles depending on the amount of dysfunction in the family that we all take on to try to compensate for the organism that’s out of balance yes then we take this role into our lives and we wonder why it’s not working it’s not us we have compensated for uh balancing the the organism right and we get really good at stuff too like there’s certain like you’re probably a good you probably help people really well you I’m a showman I learned how to take care of my mom and put on a show Da Da Da Da Da Da pow but it’s not all of who I am we learned some things but it’s not completely satisfying for us to play those roles but and emeshment, is the one that we all have it’s very subtle most people don’t think it’s trauma and running the show 

Dr. Stacy Thayer: you stumbled on on something there uh it won’t say stumble because you’re very purposeful you hit something really um you know that that is near and dear to me I uh so I talk a lot about burnout and and one of the things I was giving a talk at a conference called black hat uh two years ago and one of the things that I talked about was that a lot of times people in the security profession what is what is their profile right because they get really burnt out and and when I talk about burnout I say well what is motivating you are you the white night who’s working hard because you were saving the company you were the person who was between all of these attackers and you know or how is the system of the of the team working together are you compensating because someone isn’t doing enough work that you you know so you think so now all of the suddn you’re you’re why am I having to pick up the slack for this other person and you’re having to do that I’ve done consulting with different uh it and Tech and security organizations and the dynamics I mean it it’s you know one of the things I think is so interesting is people go to therapy to talk some you know we can they understand oh I’m going to talk about my childhood I’m going to talk about my relationships and yet here you have a working environment or your career path and and for many of my listeners it’s it’s people in the security or technology industry what what made them choose that what is that about themselves that self-reflection piece right and then you know how is that kind of fulfilling their purpose or their role and so much of your work defines your self worth I’m I’m watching people who you know companies their being laid off that is traumatic for many people um I went through a layoff um a couple jobs ago and I was shook right it’s like you’re just sort of looking for the next is it gonna happen is it gonna happen again um many people in security who have been through a breach right there was recently a big breach on this company called solar winds and a lot of people are pointing fingers at the the head of the security the CISO there and the CISO community is sort of kind of coming together and going don’t blame one person the cesos are doing the best that they can yeah but I can only imagine what it’s like to be in that role and know that when it comes if if if something comes down if something happens if you have been breached how do you recover from from that that is a traumatic episode I mean it can if everybody’s blaming a breach on you so to get to that is is when it comes to these workplace traumas that we almost the way that I sort of feel self flagellate ourselves with well I signed up for this I’m lucky to have a paycheck I deserve this treatment or I’m in a situation and to your point earlier you do have a choice um about if you want to work for a toxic environment or not the alternative might not be great especially in this economy because there’s not a lot of jobs out there and everything and so how great is the choices that you have but what are your recommendations then for for where do you begin and and I’ll focus a little bit more on the workplace trauma just starting there but where do you begin

Dr. Bob Beare: I had a client enough years ago that I think I can just talk about it whether it’s appropriate or notations expired he wouldn’t care anyway and I’m not going to speak directly about him but he worked for a particular government organization and he was in my group several of my groups and work healing workshops that I do and in recovery and doing a lot of work and but whenever he was in group he was complaining about this government entity that he was working for and had been for many years and uh when anyone would mention to him uh that perhaps it’s a choice that he’s staying there he would say oh no it’s not a choice he’ say well you you know brother  you chose it and you’re continuing to no I have to do it he absolutely could not get it through his mind that he had chosen it and that he he said I had to do this out of school this is the what gave and I have to now I have to finish uh for the retirement think I have to he could not see he could not get out of stepback from himself far enough to see that it was a choice and it’s and this is a person who was severely abused as a child there was uh many uh many moments where he absolutely could not do something other than what his uh fascist caregivers wanted him to do it was in his bones that if he that he would die probably or be severely punished if he didn’t do what he was supposed to do it happens to be the government agency that’s the most feared by most people that has to do with money yeah so uh uh yeah the you’re you’re asking me well where do we start I train wreck all I can all I have to share with people is my experience and you can’t just say hey this is a job that’s not that um not fulfilling me very well I think I’ll go do something different very few people do that they have to have some pain pain is the only because uh you know we’re we get it works just like addiction you work workplaces are just full of a variety of addictions including work addiction it’s a uh the validation that we get um from our jobs and waiting for that pay raise or waiting for some boss to to say you did great and is a it changes our chemistry and we get addicted to it and it takes what does it take for an addict to get well there’s no therapist there’s no coach there’s no family member that’s going to help he has to almost die yeah and when we talk about burn when I hear the word burnout I’m say oh well we got some hope for this one well that’s it’s in fact I would not my orientation certainly probably not yours or most of my colleagues my orientation in that case would be not to try to mitigate the burnout not to try to make it better easier softer fix it I would say hey let’s work a little harder and get that burnout to the point where you can say wait a minute this is not what I want in my life and I you know I’ll take it to an even other level that I’ve had quite a bit of controversial l conversations about I’m not sure the jobs in themselves are a good idea so that’s kind of radical but why am I working so hard for someone else’s vision and that’s why my book is dangerous I don’t you know I gave it to a bunch of folks at a car dealership I did a workshop over there I said seriously you want these guys to uh start noticing that they hate this [ __ ] yeah it’s dangerous to start looking at what do you really want what happened the got you off the trajectory of being able to pay attention to that wise little child that lives in us and says no this is what we should be doing oh shut up but you we can’t do that that’s impractical it’s dangerous to start doing the work 

Dr. Stacy Thayer: well the the the exploration of of self and I I think one of the things that I I I do find interesting like Al so you this is kind of the I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing if I didn’t do this right I overthink I I overthink I Naval gaze I’m like but what about this and you know I could sit here for another hour and tell you all the reasons for that but but um I enjoy that process it’s probably not an hour you you had to learn how to think and it does the details of what got you to that but that was something that you got a lot of affirmation about figuring [ __ ] out I’ll guarantee it somewhere in your growing up yes yes and and how to to um understand people I mean just to to be able to understand people and so I I always encourage people so like when I talk about Bern I said you know if you Google search mental health in the workplace or something and you get go meditate go do this and it’s like no like that doesn’t that’s not where it starts you need to go like and and again I do say this from personal experience it’s like when you’re having that down day and nothing matters it’s like you you know I don’t want to go for a run unless you’re chasing me if I’m having a one of those days I’m not like Yay I’m going to go you know take due self-care you’re not there yet it’s easier to have that drink it’s easier to numb yourself it’s it’s easier to not make the harder what I’ll say it’s kind of the harder choice and I’ve been there I have made those easier choices regretted it and had to climb the way and you know make do that work um it’s worth it the the growth and and everything but it’s it’s not for everybody and some and I do get the feedback of like can we just hang out do you always have to talk and like you know I I used to be that one at a party who be uh you know this is this is 20 years ago or so but was always interested I would be in the smoker room because that’s where the interesting people were sitting there harming ourselves smoking our cigarettes and you know and that’s not necessarily the way that’s that’s a very jaded way of looking at it but I always wanted to to dig deep and to understand and to learn and and not everybody does and that’s okay I tell a lot of leadership that if you’re not the touchy feely person who wants to really know why somebody’s not performing cool excuse yourself from it but every manager of a team has to have that 

Dr. Bob Beare: Dynamic that where people can vent in a healthy way they can come to you if something’s going wrong in their life that you’re able to communicate and in a word and I have a couple of other questions around this but be vulnerable if we’re not vulnerable in some way um you know then then how we able to to make change and also to to but to help other people and accept the challenges they’re facing with which we have to do in a workplace so my doctoral dissertation was on vulnerability I don’t know I don’t think I sent you that so you might not no you didn’t didn’t vul vulnerability and Leadership so I interviewed a lot of uh leaders who I happen to know had had done some inner work right which is actually that’s not easy to find but uh uh because we live in a culture is rah rah success success success not a whole lot of uh pay attention to the full experience of the of our body and our emotions it’s really not encouraged very much so these guys are not these men and women are not uh there there aren’t a lot of them anyway I found a lot of them and that was part of the research just to find these folks and Inter I interviewed them about what it’s like to be vulnerable as a leader in other words what do we mean by vulnerability brne Brown definition is uh willingness to be uncertain not always have the answers uh take risks take take some risk emotional risk mostly is what she means by that uh uh and and to do things that might not always work you know be willing to make some mistakes right in front of your people and U the third one is to be emotionally transparent that’s the hardest one and there there I did a multiple case study it was a qualitative study so you can’t extract a uh result really okay well this is the truth no but a multiple case study you can at least say yeah it’s probably true and in in that study there was two or three things that they almost all agreed on one was uh it’s it’s dangerous vulnerability is dangerous as a leader you will be taken out people will use it against you people will uh use it to manipulate that best uh you know people that are built like that will use it against you you can bet on them and they also our whole industry is built on people taking advantages of vulnerability everybody get that can relate I think I hope and actually while I’m thinking of it while I was doing my research it’s really hard to find articles on the vulnerability that we’re referring to most of the vulnerability references are that it’s a bad thing right right mitigate uh vulnerability which is your whole world right that’s right right we’re going to protect against all the vulnerabilities how can we be less vulnerable no vulnerability I mean it’s it’s a whole that’s the mentality partnered on the other side with some very real hackers that are designed to exploit your vulnerabilities they’re proving they’re proving that you need to it’s proof that we need to be uh secured so that that one the second thing I just before I forget the the second the second thing the leader said was that it’s worth it because it is the most inspirational leadership style people trust it they will give you everything and people will tell you the truth if you tell the truth as a leader you can bet that you’re uh the people that are working for you are going to tell the truth more to you and a good leader wants to know what’s going on and you’re gonna find out more if you’re willing to be vulnerable although it’s dangerous and I’m trying to think of what the other uh uh um maybe it’ll come to me at some point but those are those are a couple of the big takeaways that these uh leaders shared vulnerability is not popular oh the other thing was it’s lonely there aren’t a lot of people doing it you’re not going to see a lot of models for vulnerability you kind of just have to do it and create your own your own world around that and you know you’ll create a community but you know I’m sort of jaded uh I’m more of a I did a lot of work with dun the dumbar number the the the um you know about that the rule of 150 no after you get over that there’s lots of research on this um dunar I think back in the 20s or I’m not even sure when it was but there’s been many studies since put a bunch of monkeys out there and they got along well until they got to about 150 then they started fighting because you can’t you can’t really know 150 people you can know over that anyway after that you really really can’t know who they are and and then you’re making rules for people you’ve never met right I’m talking now I’m talking in the work workplace so I’m not you know any organization that grows to a certain size and here you and I are saying damn why can’t they just be a warm loving family I don’t know 

Dr. Stacy Thayer: I think it’s a high expectation it is it is and and it be it it puts the onus on every manager and every individual right cuz somewhere out there you’ve got an HR person who we need them bless them but you know whatever but we need them and they put these policies like so you know unlimited vacation time okay great but if your manager doesn’t allow you that what good is it andso what I looked at for my dissertation is what does it take for for uh Employee Engagement in other words for for that um to be able to to give as and and to get that flow of like I love my job I’m in the zone and what I found was that um psychological safety was essential that if somebody felt that they mattered and that they could be who they their authentic self and they could present their authentic self in a work environment and that their input was valuable that was what created their loyalty and their work and they would be willing to say work those extra hours and they would be willing to say like yeah you know I’m willing to to go in because of that reciprocity right and um and I always just found that so interesting because it implies that that really what people are looking for is a safe place to be themselves and that is the scariest thing in the world as well. 

Dr. Bob Beare: Yeah, and it’s possible in groups. I mean you’re gonna but it’s just like in 12 step recovery. You know people come to me and I send them to meetings they say I hate those meetings. Those people are crazy in there. No shit. They’re alcoholics. But. But what you kind of got to take a few breaths and look around and you’re gonna find some of the most loving creative wise mature people you’ve ever met in your life in those rooms but you have to get out it kind of get out of the victim and waiting for somebody to do something bad to you because when we do that we’re gonna find it. And it’s the same thing in the workplace we have to find people to connect with and but the expectation that people are going to create our safety for us. You know? Ah yeah, we both had the same finding I think we we need. To create environments that are ah a container that has safety. That’s as good a word as any in other words safety for us to be ourselves. It doesn’t always have to be nice and kind and sweet and oh aren’t you such a perfect. No. What safety means to me this is a place where you know like ah what’s his name Jack Nicholson in that movie. You can’t handle the truth where group handle the truth a group that has done enough inner work to handle the truth. So this is when I was doing executive coaching I had this little dog and pony show. Thing that I did that was sort of what I called the grid on the one side I’d ask the leaders. So do you guys have this handle. Do you folks have this handled the skills. The computer skills the security skills the in this particular outfit was an electrical company so you have the. You guys. It’s everything in place. There are you guys up and running here said. Okay, yes, all right? then I can help you if you have work to do on that side marketing or whatever and and that’s why you’re having trouble then I can’t help you. But if that’s all in place I can help you because those are the skills now. There’s another set of skills. That will give you the unfair advantage in the marketplace. Well, what’s that Dr Beare emotional intelligence skills and that’s what almost nobody’s working on because they’re afraid of it. The leaders themselves are afraid of. But if you want to have a big leg up then you have to learn the.

The skills which in the first one is the most loathsome to most success oriented people because they just want to do do do do do push push success discipline. Oh my god I’m tired even saying the words. Ah, but but the first. You know the first skill of emotional intelligence is to know what you’re feeling and I can’t tell you how many especially men have sat in front of me and said well what are you feeling brother. It’s like not a clue.

Dr. Stacy Thayer: I pulled from your book. So again when we talk about the the you talk about the 4 basic skills of emotional intelligence. So feelings awareness knowing what you’re feeling empathy of having that interest and sense of another person’s emotions. regulation and expression the ability to articulate and manage emotions and then presence being in the moment. Emotionally all I mean all of which depend on the situation and your own personal comfort with it can be challenging and and even. You know I do a lot work with some Neuro divergent folks and I’ve given talks on um, you know the the autism spectrum and you know things like that I mean you’re dealing with a range of different people that can handle that level of emotion. Some people are very skilled at emotional intelligence other people I Just want to write the code or. You know, be in the the the knock or be you know,? whatever it is and and I don’t want to interact with people and another thing I pulled through you had some great quotes I’ve also been a fan of young and I mean so he this quote of we do not become enlightened by imagining figures of light but by making the darkness conscious and you know maslow is self. Actualization Nietsche has talking about the abyss looking into the abyss. Why do you think it is that some people are able to really have that emotional awareness or intelligence or is there just truth to ignorance is Bliss and the less you know the better and the hema that I’m perfectly Happy. Bumping around and I have the confidence to in myself and I would argue. It’s not necessarily Confidence. It’s fake faked faux confidence but because there’s certainly a lot of people out there that are very successful with very little emotional intelligence.

Dr. Bob Beare: Yeah, well you know the word success is a subjective term and you know success in some people’s mind might be completely unconscious, not feeling anything. They just have a lot of money now. Okay. Good. It’s not that would not be satisfying for me. It’s ah in itself. But for some people it is and it’s not yours and my job to like try to slap them into understanding that there’s more to life. You know life will do it Itself. We don’t have I had an old mentor said if you’re working. Feel like you’re working too hard as a facilitator you’re working too Hard. It’s like we don’t have to get these people to wake up. It’s not our job. The life will do it but when they start waking Up. We have some tools to continue the journey to deepen your life to live a life that’s wider and more passionate. And and that you have more access to actually experiencing this life which is what emotions are by the way those are our response to being alive if you want some of that we have some tools for for you right? So a couple of. Quick vignettes. 1 kid came to me well actually he got kicked out of a particular country because he caused so much trouble. They kicked them out of the school where he and I like to talk they kick them out of Israel and ah so anyway I’m sitting there doing a family session. He’s got his arms cross. Eventually he found the whole family needed the support what he was just the identified patient at the time but but eventually he said well why do I need to go to meetings and to talk about my feelings and I and I just told him well you don’t want to be a superficial prick all your life. Do you and I was just. I was just being kind of casual with him but that had meaning to him he remembers that that was like a wake up call. He said? Yeah no I don’t that’s one that’s 1 thing. There’s another thing that happened when I was um, a brand new therapist I work at a pych hospital this old psychiatrist.And there was this one person on the unit is an old man and he was really hurting and I said to the psychiatris because I was new to the work I was ready to get him in it shouldn’t we like help him heal from his childhood and wake up those feelings he said ah I don’t know sometimes you get to a certain point you might want to just consider. Trying to make somebody’s life a little better that day rather than trying to break open all of their shit right? So we have to look at we have to look at the people who’re working with 1 person at a time where are they are they ready. It’s that old adage with addicts right? They’re and they’re going to be ready when they’re ready. You’re not going to make them ready but you know sometimes workplace. Ah ah horrors are a wake up call to folks and unfortunately in the workplace you’re hired. We are hired there to make it all better. We wanted to ah you know conflict is why we’re invited in in this consultants right? And I love it. That’s I know I can do something when people are hurting but when everything’s fine. It’s saying I come on back to me some you know pain pain is the only thing that I’ve ever made much really sustainable change behind.

Dr. Stacy Thayer: Yeah. Right? Things aren’t. You asked if I had kids and I do I have um, they’re 8 now twins 2 girls and 1 of them is very comfortable with her emotions doesn’t care what people think she is who she is. She’s very unique and the other one she gets it from her mom I know and where these big emotions big heart but also big big frustrations. Big challenging of things and we were sitting there and we were talking and I said it’s okay to feel how you feel and she says I don’t want to feel bad and she was kind of fighting it. And I said I get that like logically why would I want to sit and feel why would I want to feel those emotions rather than just numb them or push them down like she was trying to like it’s no big deal I don’t want to talk about it. I said you know the thing is is that when you if you ever find a way to be comfortable with your emotions and sit. In that pain and say like yeah this hurts this sucks I don’t like this I want to make it better. But I’m hurting right now and really allowing that feeling that it’s your superpower and yeah and and get its it. We’ve talked a lot about that and she’s kind of I can see it. You know she’s she’s been working on that but she just has these emotions are so big. She’s 8 You know we talk about the big emotions that she can’t takes a long time for her to you know, come around and then she’s like sorry I freaked out mom and I’m like I know you didn’t mean it. It was a big emotion. We talked through it. But I mean I get it with with it’s it’s hard to go there. It’s hard to go there and go this is going to be uncomfortable. This is going to be awkward like I’m an introvert if I have to have an awkward conversation I’m like oh this is going to be awkward I sitting with people having awkward conversations like I tend to absorb that. That’s my own. but but I’ve done the work for myself to know all right Stacey. What’s going on. Why are you doing this this is reminding you and I have that inner monologue that gets me through it. But yeah, what? what is the motivation. Why why should we?

Dr. Bob Beare: that’s right yeah and and and and she there we’ve talked a lot about that and she’s kind of I can see it you know she’s she’s been working on that but she just has these emotions are so big she’s eight you know we talk about the big emotions that she can’t takes a long time for her to you know come around and then she’s like sorry I freaked out mom and I’m like I know you didn’t mean it it was a big emotion we talked through it but I mean I get it with with it’s it’s hard to go there it’s hard to go there and go this is going to be uncomfortable this is going to be awkward like I’m an introvert if I have to have an awkward conversation I’m like oh this is going to be awkward I sitting with people having awkward conversations like I tend to absorb that that’s my own but but I’ve done the work for myself to know H all right Stacy what’s going on why are you doing this this is reminding you and I have that inner monologue that gets me through it but you what what is the motivation why why should we if if someone was to say to you well all right why should I and I loved what you said about you know living life and everything but you know again kind of coming back to where we started in the beginning um because we’re we’re almost running out of time unfortunately but for both the the people who want to do it and want to do that work and then for the skeptics who say there’s no such thing as soft skills this is just a bunch of emotional mumbo jumbo for those you know two camps what what do you what’s words of wisdom and advice and why do it why does it

Dr. Bob Beare: matter um right now I’m I’m thinking of the making space for uh diversity right neurodiversity is that’s the new language for it right it’s everybody’s got a different Brilliance and if we can like create create spaces like that but the corporate world is just not set up for that they got a goal they want you to make those widgets and uh you’re gonna the best we’ll do is kind of because HR has decided that you have to do a diversity thing or whatever the list is that’s in some workplaces it’s slightly better you might have a uh and this is the point I’m going to make uh leadership and parenting are the same same topic everything that is healthy about leadership is the same things that are healthy about parenting and here’s the thing that most parents don’t want to hear and most leaders don’t want to hear you’re not going to make you can make them do it for a short time you can tell them to do it for a short time you can even get in there and do it with them and and like show them what a good person you are to and be a servant leader you can do that for a while if you want and none of that is sustainable there’s only one thing that’s sustainable and that is to model what you want you’re not going to talk your you’re not gonna I’m not going to talk my daughter we’re not going to talk our kids into being what we want them to be we’re gonna Mo they’re going to model the they’re going to see that I’m a man that has access to my emotions and I’m and I’m I’m I can sit with my emotions I don’t have to be reactive and hurt people with it or to run away from it or medicate it that’s the modeling I do with my I’ve done with my daughter mostly it’s working out so far I don’t put a lot of uh I’ve never this is another experiment I’ve tried that’s working so far come back in five years I don’t know but she’s 21 and I’ve never uh punished her for anything course she’s a pretty easy kid so I I will say that but I’ve never taken [ __ ] away from her take away her phone and all because oh my God the horrors of screens oh come on it’s it what what was it when I was rock and roll was gonna ruined me brain yeah whatever now it’s AI oh my God AI is gonna take us out oh my God everybody breathe and just do your inner work will you and then model it for each other and here’s one last thing on that uh the I don’t think you’re going to create a place in the workplace for people to do the work the idea you might give them a little toe toe in the Water by using a personality instrument like I use the any I love the anram maybe that’s for another uh podcast you and I uh or or the burkman the burkman is uh really because it starts a conversation in a fun way about our shadow to mention Yung again we can in a fun way talk about oh yeah I’m a control freak yeah he’s a control freak rather than having to kill each other off around it we can sort of play with it so it’s a doorway but the real work happens in uh if if uh it has to be a coaching or a therapeutic somatic uh someone that’s trained somatically because all of our problems are lodged in the body you are not going to figure it out in in this thing called the intellect we that thing is not that we are very proud of our intellect it ain’t that great the the uh the the trauma is lodged in the body and it’s running the show we have to get into it I run workshops called The Deep Waters exper experience every other month people dive in and break that stuff loose let it go and have a whole new level of freedom but it’s not permanent you have to keep going to groups where people we have to find our people that’s what if anybody’s listening to this and say well how can I do it you have to find your people and there’s you know there’s different 12-step groups that are open to feelings expression you have to get to the feelings in the body grief is the river that washes the trauma away I know that’s kind of I didn’t mean to make a little poem there but it’s it’s just the it’s it’s how we’re built it’s our physical healing mechanism is grief and we are uh running around trying to create security systems and to make sure we never cry we’re so we’re we’re uh uh and so hopefully maybe you and I and this group of folks that are listening now we’re going to take this message out and we’re going to create safer places for people to have their emotions that’s that’s kind of my mission I’m a little older than you wait a minute no I’m a lot older than you and you know I’m hoping to leave a a rhythm of that in the world a little a few more drops right yep yeah I’m feel the same way it’s like if if there’s somebody out there that that listens and and pauses for a second and their life is a little bit better or and and any right it doesn’t come without a lot of work and pain and the growth and everything but it is worth it it is powerful and and yeah to find those resources I love that of of find your people we’re your people there are your people there’s and and the EV in the internet makes it so much you know out there and you may be vulnerable but in a way it’s like you’re just so much more vulnerable when you’re not comfortable with your emotions when you’re comfortable with it when you own it and you can get to that authentic self then you’re you’re kind of you know not scary anymore if you’re committed to being perfect at having your feelings forget about it never gets perfect and especially when you’re new at it you’re not gonna be great at it but you’ll be appreciated in circles of folks who uh saying wow thank you for being so vulnerable man it’s like uh it’s it’s it’s beautiful work and I’m happy to talk to anybody if they want to reach out to me and I yeah uh and I can direct you to lowcost Free by donation uh Circles of folks to to help those emotions start uh coming forward that 

Dr. Stacy Thayer: That is great I I will include links to to all of your work and everything when when this gets um posted so that people can reach out because um I think you’re just an incredible um resource and I enjoyed reading your book and thank you so much for for coming on here and for for being a guest and sharing your world uh into to my world which they don’t meet all that often so uh it means a lot to to have you on here so thank you so much yeah thank you thanks for your good work you’re it’s I’ve I’ve been in that world it’s not it’s it’s hard to be a touchy feely leader in that world so I’m sending you a lot of love and a lot of support keep breathing yes keep breathing all right well thank you so much and and to my listeners uh thank you so much for listening if you have any uh questions or comments you can you can email and message and make comments uh and I will see you next time so thank you